Protagonists that get to your head!, ..When your main character suddenly becomes the center of the universe Options

[{§hani}]

Just a little advice to ya'll writers out there, problems we can encounter and how we can overcome them to improve our writing skills as such.

Firstly what i mean by "Protagonists that get to your head" is most if not every story has a protagonist, a main character of which the story revolves around but alot of the time things can get out of hand and suddenly your protagonist just became the reigning queen of the universe; in other words others can begin to potray them as "selfish", "arrogant" and even "weak". And i belive alot of the time the biggest problem a writer can encounter is the Humble-problem.

How do we pick the right balance of humble traits in our protagonists to make them seem somewhat believable?? Leading by example JKrolling is an expert on this matter, i belive she is one of the few writers to execute a perfectly humble protagonist; Harry Potter. He's not arrogant, he never gives in the antagonist but he never believes he is the center of anything. And it works, perfectlly!
Whilst other saga's like Twilight (as per example - lets not get into a Twili vs. HP riot people!) go overboard with the protagonist and make her seem somewhat vulnerable and weak.

Basically i feel that alot of the time the writer can get far too involved in the story and lose their head. Your role as the writer is to execute a perfectly balanced and interesting story whilst portraying the protagonists in an intended manor. But if as per example; we picture outselfs as a certain character suddenly the whole story shifts and becomes about you.

Thats not to say all protagonists have be good, loving, humble people. No infact alot of protagonists are made to be selfish and fiery; but a good writer will always help for the reader to like them. Because i guess a story with a disliked protagonist is a watsed story. Now i am not telling you how to write simply that (i make this mistake very often) your protagonist should be likable by an audience and have a relation to them. A great example of this is Scott Westerfelds series "Uglies", Tally Youngblood is a deviant and rebelious young lady with a big temperment but she relates to the reader incredibly well whilst not seeming weak. c:

i hope to write more about this matter and that people become actively involved in the discussion.
bye for now.

[Princess-Mariah]

Lol when I read this I tottally was thinking of something :) and I totally agree about it

[{§hani}]

mm i know what you mean Mariah c: im going to write more tommorow see if i can get a good thing going c:

[Princess-Mariah]

Yeah I agree you should lol Im loving you writing

[P-girl]

Interesting piece.

Yes, making a character balanced is hard. Especially when you start writing. Making them the centre of everything is too easy, and 'Mary Sue'-ness seems inevitable.

As with a lot of things in writing, my advice is to 'Map things out'. Make sure what you want from a protagonist before you start writing. This remedies both Sueism and inconsistencies. Also, and this is a hard part; do NOT make your protagonist too much like yourself. Self-insertions can be done right, but people tend to want to 'Glorify' themselves a bit, and self-inserts will become idealised versions of ourselves and who we want to be, instead of who we are. Take Eragon as an example. The author never made it a secret the main character is based around him, but it's obvious the main character is an idealised version of himself, taking away much relatability and likability.

[Princess-Mariah]

I totally agree though this peice of work explains something I have seen throughout my life throughout School, Forums, and tv.

I have noticed that people can think that it is always about them so they take control of everything and make it so that nothing happens without them knowing. If they do not get what they want they will go off complaining also known as whining. Though they act different with their writings it is still a piece of them. Take for example on every roleplay I do I try to make it with music and love. My characters love music and illusion and they always look for romance. As so do I. EVERYONE is alike with their character they cant help it. Which is why I have noticed in my life that their are selfish so I make it so I am not because I don't want to end up as a total wannabe like them.

[{§hani}]

mm i agree. I think everyone has a bit of their character within them. but thats just natural, we all try to glorafy ourselfs because plainly its much nicer to see ourselfs a good person rather than bad. But of course we can take it out of hand and make things far too like ourselfs in which things become hugely propotioned. i so the same mariah i make my characters through music and romance. because theyre a part of me. Whilst other may make their chracters through violence and games. Were all diffrent but in thened we all make stories about things relevant to both outselfs and to our active concious. its how we work as humans.

[P-girl]

I didn't say you shouldn't make parts of your characters like yourself..... I'm just warning not to go overboard, since that's a common flaw found in literary works. I make my characters in a way they fit into the world they're in, as well as trying out various archetypes that I'm interested in at the moment. I experiment with loads of character types.

[Princess-Mariah]

Yes yes I see what you mean. Though I re-read this topic and thought for a second maybe the people who are protagonists make it in everything they write to seam as if it is all about them and never diferent unless its something to make them look good. That is why some people make it not let it happen and take over and make it into a storyline that helps their characters but it ends up some others get jealous and mad and start critizing them for nothing

[{§hani}]

haha lawl i never said that either and im pretty sure Mariah didnt either. c: i agree completly, its not a great thing to base a charecter on yourself because it creates chaos. lawl this isnt a disagreement or soemthing i think were all on the same page :3

[P-girl]

Well..... RPs are a whole different ballgame, since the control of the characters are in the hands of several authors, not just one. And since the focus is more on your own characters, with a 'Dungeon Master' focussing on the encompassing plot, it's a bit more justified to have plot points revolve around your characters. You just have to be carefull that the other characters have impact on the stories and plots you introduce.

This post has been edited by P-girl: Jul 21 2010, 12:51 PM

[MorriganAensland]

Well, throwing my two cents weekly paycheck's worth of two cents in here, I feel the important thing when you write about a protagonist, you should make them no less detailed than everyone around them.

All too often in stories the main character's the one we're supposed to "project" on, so they often are the most insecure, weak-willed losers that get horrible grades and never move up in the world. In short: like most main characters in Nickelodian and Cartoon Network shows. Now keep in mind there's nothing *wrong* with these character traits automatically. What's wrong is thinking *these* have to be characters we can relate to and as such they're made to be otherwise bland and boring so they can appeal to the lowest common denominator.

The protagonist is the person whose eyes we use to see the story unfold. They don't have to be like us and they shouldn't be tailor made for us to be able to relate to. They're supposed to be a character: no less interesting than the others around them.

I mean, look at Shinn Asuka in Gundam SEED Destiny. We have a guy who, after losing his family two years ago, suffer tremendous guilt and rage problems, blaming people for their deaths when they weren't involved in any way, has a very narrow view of the world as a whole (though on a more personal level he's a tad more nuanced... sometimes), and all too often in fights he resorts to a lot of screaming and shooting and stabbing until everyone he needs to fight is dead. His character even goes into a downward spiral around episode 36 where he seemingly kills his pseudo-mentor and the sister of one of his friends and it just goes downhill for him even more, culminating in a humiliating final fight followed by crying like a little baby. Heck, by the end of the story it's debatable if he's even the hero anymore.

And you know what? I think he's a wonderful character. In spite of everything I just said he fights for what he believes in, tries to better himself along the way, does everything in his power to keep his word, doesn't hesitate to do his job when everyone's counting on him, and is driven by guilt and shame over his family's death to not lose anyone else he's close to (spoilers: he fails miserably at this). And he is, without a doubt, the protagonist through it all. He fights in the end to see the Destiny Plan go into effect, and sure he fails in it and we're not sure if this is necessarily a good thing or a bad thing due to information in the various side materials. As I've said numerous times before, flaws make things interesting, and characters are no exception. Shinn is clearly flawed to a fault and I love him for that because he's not dull and unimaginative when he's put up against the people he's close to. Even his downward spiral stays relatively consistent for the bulk of the series.

Now Bella, and I'm probably going to get stoned for this, is *not* a good protagonist. We hear things about her like she loves reading, but these are wholly informed traits. She never bothers making analogies from well known (or if she's a bibliophile, obscure) stories and as far as I can tell, there's never any scene where Edward finds her reading a book she can't get her nose out of and has to pry it away from her or ask her what it's about in the name of curiosity. It's just some random trait thrown out there so people can think "ZOMG! I READ BOOKS A LOT TOO, LIKE RIGHT NOW! THIS MEANS I'M LIKE BELLA!". Her word choices at numerous parts of the story (admittedly they were Stephanie's but let's give the poor author the benefit of the doubt) are horribly off which implies she's not as well-read as she'd think. And once the story becomes all about her and Edward things just start to atrophy away. The less something is related to Edward, the less important it is to the narrative and is quietly shoved aside.

This isn't character growth. This is character stagnation. Bella's interest in Edward drives nearly all, if not all drama and conflict and other things just conveniently fall into place. And at this point her defects stop being flaws and start being conveniences that keep things rolling.

And what is the difference between and a convenience and a flaw you might ask? It's all in the interactions.

In Gundam SEED Destiny, during the period of time that it was still good, there is a scene in which Shinn encounters an enemy base. In spite of being ordered to fall back and support his friends, he refuses to do so when he sees it's an internment camp and in the confusion prisoners are trying to escape. As they get gunned down by guards Shinn snaps and in response kills the guards and goes to town on the base. His narrow views on what's right and wrong cause him to disobey orders and not even bother with a decent justification until afterwards. This kind of insubordination causes his pseudo-mentor to beat the crap out of him for trying to play the hero in a war. He makes a decision and there are repercussions from it, some good and some bad. It creates tension between him and his mentor and lets us see they have differing views on issues.

Now compare this to Bella, who, for the sake of this comparison, has the flaw of being "too" devoted too Edward. Now Edward does things that by all rights would be considered stalker material. It's handwaved away by arguing "oh, he loves her" but seriously, when a vampire who's not sure if he can control himself breaks into your room multiple times to just watch you sleep you'd expect someone to voice a little concern for it. But not Bella. She's too in love with the guy. In this situation, and in fact others, this "flaw" serves to be a get-out-of-jail free card and saves the story of making this event have any kind of dramatic effect.

Heck, keep the situation exactly how it is, but just throw in someone voicing genuine concern for Bella and trying to take steps to see she doesn't get killed by that big nasty stalker vampire! At which point we get drama and tension from a situation. Bella's devotion causes people to become more concerned for her well-being and unsure if she should be with Edward and right there you have a flaw rather than a convenience.

This post has been edited by MorriganAensland: Jul 21 2010, 6:34 PM

[P-girl]

Well said. The main problem with Bella is that she's a blank slate. A much used defence for this is that we're meant to 'Project' ourselves into her. I'm sorry, but that does not an interesting character make.

I like deeply flawed protagonists. Most of my characters are. They're far more interesting. I mean, who's more interesting; Superman the perfect embodiment of all that a hero should be, or Iron Man, a deeply flawed character who nevertheless tries to be all he can be and fight for good. At least the Box office agrees with me on this one.

[MorriganAensland]

Well Superman definitely is a hard character to write well. But some people do a really amazing job with him. Grant Morrison for instance. He wrote All-Star Superman and it is incredible. Yes Superman's a boyscout but that's the point. If he wasn't then there'd be no real point to anything.

But we have a genuine flaw in this case: Superman has exactly one year left to live. And sure in the process he's become stronger than he ever has in any other time in his past, but the fact he has only one year left *is* a flaw in this case because he IS going to die and that's exactly what happens in the end. And the story uses that situation to frame a wonderful series that chronicles his efforts to make the world a better place in his final days, complete with very sad and tragic instances and also very heartwarming ones too.

Iron Man's still awesome though. The movies did a great job of showing both his self-destructive and heroic tendencies.

[P-girl]

Heard about that one. I'm not really into comics, so I took my experience with their movies and general reputation, using the name more for recognisability. I mean, not a lot of people have heard about Axel.....

This post has been edited by P-girl: Jul 21 2010, 8:23 PM